Curse

Mormegil · Jul 12, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diomedes

Weren't we talking about China here?

-Diomedes

No, the discussion became more general at a certain point, but I guess the slight OT ws predictable in a thread like this.

By the way, my previous statement (the one about "the attitude") wasn't directed at you personally, so don't take it as a dogma, or a flag behind which I'm hiding to bash you. Nothing like that.

MuKen · Jul 12, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Look how I can make minor edits to this story without disturbing the continuity at all! (edits in bold)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalia

I posted the link because I believe gamers should be informed. This is the only response I'm going to make to this thread.

Once upon a time there lived two young men….

Rex was raised in an affluent country. His family lived comfortably and enjoyed the latest technology. Rex began gaming at a young age. During an “adventure vacation,” Rex met Sam.

Sam lived in an impoverished country. His was a family of several generations – ten people living in one small structure. While the home had indoor plumbing and electricity, a rarity in his community, the family struggled to survive. Sometimes their daily meal consisted of little more than rice. Only one of the children was lucky enough to go to school. That wasn’t Sam.

During his years of gaming, Rex had discovered the use of bots. When he went of to college with a brand new computer system, Rex got an idea.

Rex mailed Sam with a proposal. He would send Sam several computers. Sam and others from his village would click a mouse for 10 hours a day, for which Rex would pay each American minimum wage. Rex would take the “products” they generated and sell them for $3,000.00 a day. Sam agreed.

Thanks to this arrangement, Sam’s family was able to eat more than once a day. They could afford healthcare. They could afford to fix their leaky roof. They could afford to send any of their other children to school. But they no longer had to worry about starving. Most of the village lived in poverty, ignorance and disease – but they didn’t. They were grateful for that.

Life in Sam’s village was forever changed. Many discussions revolved around what life in the affluent country must be like. Some dreamed of going there some day and starting a new life. Some resented the disparity of the word. And, in some, anger and hate festered.

The bots used in the games proved problematic for game developers and, in turn, for the gamers themselves. Time and funding that developers would have used to improve and add content to their games went into efforts to control botting instead. Game economies were skewed and many players complained. Other gamers saw botting or purchasing bot-made items as ways to stay competitive, therefore compounding the problem into an endless cycle.

As for Rex, Rex used the money generated from his new-found business to pay for a master’s degree in business administration. He bought a fancy car and a fancy house with even fancier technology and married a fancy woman. He began to make contributions to politicians and, in time, became an influential lobbyist.

No one lived happily ever after.

Dalia

My point is that most of the story is fluff, designed to be emotional, but ultimately unrelated to the discussion. The main issue is that nobody was hurt by the arrangement to begin with. Sure, Rex could give Sam more, or a lot more, or a lot less, or whatever. That's between Rex and Sam. But you don't fault a guy for not giving a homeless guy $10 instead of the $1 he gave him, and Rex in no way took anything away from Sam.

Aniewiel · Jul 12, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

Ah, it's good to be an ignorant american ... life, since you only know and want to know only one kind of lifestyle, is so simple for you

Having grown up in Eastern Europe myself, I find this kind of attitude amusing though *grin*.

Not every citizen of the United States is an idiot, Gwen. You did not need to tinge your otherwise rather pithy remarks with nation-bashing.

stumpy · Jul 12, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

Ok.

Here is the evidence.

Bridgestone has a huge factory in Liberia. They're polluting rivers with toxic wastes while corrupting the politicians to turn their heads away. Employees are paid 0.70-0.80 dollars a day, which is an absurdly low salary even in Liberia.
In this situation, Bridgeston is buying a product (employees' labor), and has the capability to drive the price down (low wages) because it's the only buyer there. By working for Bridgestone, these people almost starve to death. Working for anyone else would mean they would actually starve to death. They don't have an alternative, so that this is a clear situation of monopsony. No offence, but this particular example was pointed out by illustrous economists, so I'm no smartass, I'm just quoting someone else.

You can check this in Google with little effort.

I did ... but heres the conclusion of comparing China to Liberia .... china = 3rd world country with stable economy ... Liberia unfortunately ... = Unpredictable due to an unstructured economy and civil unrest ... also worth noting that statistically speaking the cost of living in Liberia is 109.0/month and your basis of 70 cents per day MAY be mis understood ... maybe ... here's why ... 90% of the union reports state that the tappers are being paid 3.01 / day which is yes still less than the cost of living ... it comes to under 100 dollars ... but again comparitively speaking ... walmart = bridgestone in our culture ... barely making it by is a fact of life in all cultures ... evidence
http://www.bothends.org/strategic/Samfu-Firestone.pdf

now lets get back to Gaming

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

Ah, it's good to be an ignorant american ... life, since you only know and want to know only one kind of lifestyle, is so simple for you

Having grown up in Eastern Europe myself, I find this kind of attitude amusing though *grin*.

lol ... actually I think I will have to throw this one gender based. You can guess the rest ... cheers *I had to chuckle at this*

Diomedes · Jul 12, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

No, the discussion became more general at a certain point, but I guess the slight OT ws predictable in a thread like this.

By the way, my previous statement (the one about "the attitude") wasn't directed at you personally, so don't take it as a dogma, or a flag behind which I'm hiding to bash you. Nothing like that.

Alright, I misunderstood your post. Sorry about that.

-Diomedes

Dalia · Jul 12, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Muken, I feel compelled to post *ONCE* more to respond to that. Altering someone's post is out of line, even when acknowledged.

My post was *not* designed to be emotional, but a truer portrayal of what I've seen posted here. I'd suggest the people who may actually care about these issues do more research than Googling for a few statistics. My point was that paying someone enough so they don't actually starve doesn't make for a happy ending.

I was also trying to indicate there may be other repercussions. Try reading a bit between the lines and see if you can find them.

And, yes, if the guy's wallet was filled with one hundred dollar bills, I'd fault him.

Dalia

MuKen · Jul 12, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalia

Muken, I feel compelled to post *ONCE* more to respond to that. Altering someone's post is out of line, even when acknowledged.

If you feel it was out of line, then I am sorry, I didn't mean for it to be an insult. I was merely trying to point out that the issue is how much the guy should be getting paid, and the vast majority of the story is entirely unrelated to that. I did so by changing that point in the story to demonstrate that it has no effect on the rest of the story. However, if you find this offensive behavior, I'll not do it to your posts in the future.

Quote:

My point was that paying someone enough so they don't actually starve doesn't make for a happy ending.

And the counterpoint is that Rex is not responsible for creating a happy ending. He did something by which both he and Sam benefitted. It's not written anywhere that since he's richer, he has to make everything work out for everybody.

stumpy · Jul 12, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalia

I'd suggest the people who may actually care about these issues do more research than Googling for a few statistics. My point was that paying someone enough so they don't actually starve doesn't make for a happy ending.

Dalia ... by throwing up some form of comparative statistics we can actually acknowledge the relativity to those who are unaware of facts. I understand your post and do care about these issues I'd just rather see people looking into their own economy first. After all, the residents of each economy have a more sound understanding of life in their country. I don't, by any means, condone Joe Americano making 450,000 profit this quater because he only has to pay x amount to y employees over in a smaller community in some 3rd world country. My posts don't in any way conclude a happy ending, it's not relative to a comparative analysis. It's just so that if you say x gamer kid gets 150 american per month (how much does that relate to in their own economy) ... that was all!

Skean Dau · Jul 12, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalia

Muken, I feel compelled to post *ONCE* more to respond to that. Altering someone's post is out of line, even when acknowledged.

My post was *not* designed to be emotional, but a truer portrayal of what I've seen posted here. I'd suggest the people who may actually care about these issues do more research than Googling for a few statistics. My point was that paying someone enough so they don't actually starve doesn't make for a happy ending.

I was also trying to indicate there may be other repercussions. Try reading a bit between the lines and see if you can find them.

And, yes, if the guy's wallet was filled with one hundred dollar bills, I'd fault him.

Dalia

This can also be read as:

"It's not fair to alter my post to show the truth!"
"Googling only brings facts to the table! I don't want facts, they hurt my argument!"
"Any story without a happy ending should be blamed on the wealthy!"
"Rich people should burn in hell, no matter how ingeneous or hard working they are!!!"

Or am I out to lunch here???

Odd Sock · Jul 12, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

- Off-topic: I love myself and my lifestyle
- On-topic: let's stop being off-topic
- In resume: GG economical/political points of view and defending them on a gaming forum. Next topic to be discussed in a GW forum: Stem cell research, good or bad ?

You can all proceed to flame me as you wish

EDIT: I also enjoy receiving your witty little PMs filled with hate messages

stumpy · Jul 12, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

your kidding

next topic : maturity levels of gamers (not just kidlets)

Pevil Lihatuh · Jul 12, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumachum

Heres a novel idea. How about Blizzard grow some balls and block all out of U.S. IP's?

yeah real smart. then people who bought the game in england/france/italy/wherever cant play

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 12, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

- Off-topic: I love myself and my lifestyle
- On-topic: let's stop being off-topic
- In resume: GG economical/political points of view and defending them on a gaming forum. Next topic to be discussed in a GW forum: Stem cell research, good or bad ?

You can all proceed to flame me as you wish

EDIT: I also enjoy receiving your witty little PMs filled with hate messages

Off Topic: I really do think that you actually get off on getting negative attention. And no I havent been sending Odd Sock PMs.....at least I hope he's not accusing me of such.

On Topic: Err I lost my train of thought in the mass confusion and flaming in here.

Odd Sock · Jul 12, 2005, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

And no I havent been sending Odd Sock PMs.....at least I hope he's not accusing me of such.

Go find yourself a shrink. I wasn't accusing you of anything. As a matter of fact I haven't even replied to any of your posts. It's funny how you take insult to what I write when in fact a) nothing I wrote in this thread was insulting b) nothing was directed towards you.

Damon Windwalker · Jul 12, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalia

My point was that paying someone enough so they don't actually starve doesn't make for a happy ending.

Reality of Life #287: This is not a fairy-tale, it's life. Life does not always have happy endings.

Keesa · Jul 12, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

Ah, it's good to be an ignorant american ... life, since you only know and want to know only one kind of lifestyle, is so simple for you

Having grown up in Eastern Europe myself, I find this kind of attitude amusing though *grin*.

What is superior about growing up in Eastern Europe? Please enlighten me.

Having lived in Asia for the formative years of my adult life, and having traveled throughout the Far East, I confess I have mixed emotions about this argument.

Mormegil,

I think you have to decide as a human being whether capitalism is inherently evil or not, and from there proceed with your ethical questions.

I believe that capitalism itself is not evil.

I am also convinced that people who work within the common law to exceed their national average salary should be rewarded with the fruits of their labor.

Without one unifying international economy, no one has a right to insist that a businessman give more of what he is worth than would any of his peers. If he has a wallet full of 100 dollar bills, and chooses only to give 1 dollar, that is still more than many give. Why should he bear the brunt of charity? What makes it his responsibility to support someone who does not contribute to his wellbeing?

What is it that you seek--equality? People are never "equal." Differences in circumstance, initiative, intelligence, and creativity will all keep us from being "equal", even if we start off with the same geography and opportunities.

What underlying ethic is it that you believe will "fix" the "problem" of inequality?

stumpy · Jul 12, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Well said Keesa ... "I am also convinced that people who work within the common law to exceed their national average salary should be rewarded with the fruits of their labor."

Even if people don't agree with this, the man who never went to university and lives in the most poverty can and still does rise to heights some of our laziest 'well off' peers only dream of. Why? Because they put there dreams into actions and it isn't right to bastardize someone for using their skills to get to better places or make more money. I still don't like the idea of child labour but the fact of the matter is, child labour and inequality exist in many more places including our very own homes.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 13, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

Go find yourself a shrink. I wasn't accusing you of anything. As a matter of fact I haven't even replied to any of your posts. It's funny how you take insult to what I write when in fact a) nothing I wrote in this thread was insulting b) nothing was directed towards you.

Umm...I'm not the one blowing a gasket here. Take your own advice.

Edge Martinez · Jul 13, 2005, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

The fact that you included me with the "rich" is funny...never said that. Even more funny is the fact that you assumed I thought people would be pissed or jelous of me....got a good laugh at that one.....

My post is ONLY based on your "rich getting richer" comment, so I dont need to re-read your post.

Your parting shots at me was not only innacurate but totally uncalled for....go back to your pork rinds.

Once again I ask you to go back and read again. Comprehension while reading is the key. I did not include you with anything. If anything, you included yourself. As far as my rich getting richer comment, what is wrong with it? Did I say it was wrong? Did I say they shouldn't? No, I did not. What is your problem? Why are you taking this so personally? I notice you bring up pork rinds quite often. Your whole attitude is pretty sad, but perhaps you feel better after typing it. If so, enjoy the day!

MuKen · Jul 13, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

The fact that you included me with the "rich" is funny...never said that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

I did not include you with anything. If anything, you included yourself.

I can't help but ask, what are you talking about? You obviously did include him with the rich. Highlighted parts below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skean Dau

Whoa...back off the rich guy!!!!

While that last comment is dripping with sarcasm...let me tell you a story:

They are horrors in our world that are beyond imagination, but rich people getting as rich as they can through legal means and hard work is not one of them. It might piss you off, or make you jealous, but lets not cloud the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

Well whoop de doo... congratulations on your success. It was completely irrelevant to what I typed, but congratulations anyway.

I doubt there is a single person on this board who is pissed of or jealous of you, but if thinking that makes you feel better... hey, enjoy the day.

He made up a hypothetical story about some rich guy, you misread and thought he was talking about himself, and he corrected you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

Comprehension while reading is the key.